Prosperity Through Multifamily Real Estate Investing

Understanding Cost Segregation with Yonah Weiss

April 10, 2020 Cody Laughlin Episode 4
Prosperity Through Multifamily Real Estate Investing
Understanding Cost Segregation with Yonah Weiss
Show Notes Transcript

On today’s episode, we spend time speaking with Yonah Weiss-Business Director for Madison Specs, a national cost segregation leader. Having served as an educator prior to joining Madison Specs, Yonah found his calling for teaching and serving others through educating and when he discovered real estate, he wanted to continue educating others and help them by educating them on tax saving strategies like cost segregation.

Yonah describes the basics of depreciation and cost segregation by breaking down the concept of depreciation and how it relates to tax savings. Cost segregation is an added benefit for real estate investors as it allows you to accelerate the tax deductions you receive from owning investment real estate into a shorter time span therefore increasing the amount of tax savings in the earlier years of ownership. Yonah explains how cost segregation seperates non-structural components of a property that has a value and puts in on a different depreciation schedule. In order to conduct a cost segregation study, however, you must have an engineer who’s well versded in tax code and the building components to perform a detail assessment of your property.

Cost segregation, although a poweful tax saving strategy, may not apply to all circumstances. For example, if you invested in a property using an IRA or other retirement accounts that are already tax deferred accounts, then you would not be able to benefit from the additional tax savings of a cost segregation study. Another example in which an investor may not benefit would be an investor with no passive income to offset. 

A cost segregation analysis is free and allows you to discover the potential tax benefits prior to acquiring a property. If you acquire the property and decide that a cost segregation study will be beneficial, then an engineer is sent to your property and in turn you will receive a 90-100 page report explaining the tax depreciation benefits. 

Cody and Yonah discuss the different items that are eligible for an accelerated depreciation schedule and examples of what those new schedules look like. They then discuss bonus depreciation, which allows you to assume much of the accelerated depreciation in year one of ownership which equates to massive tax savings in year one. 

Whether you are a GP or LP, all parties with ownership in the property benefit from the tax savings from a cost segregation study and bonus depreciation (if qualified). One thing to be aware of however, at resale of the property you will have to pay a depreciation recapture tax, which is a tax on the amount of depreciation taken. There are ways to reduce that tax, as Yonah describes.

Engaging your cost segregation company in the due diligence phase can be beneficial for an investor. You can determine which depreciable items will benefit more from depreciation when performing renovations and you can also inform your potential investors of their projected tax savings if they decided to invest with you on a particular deal. 

Yonah is passionate about tax savings, educating others, and real estate investing. His primary inspiration for his success is his family and his best advice to others is always remain humble, always ask for help, and keep learning from others.

You can connect with Yonah on LinkedIn @Yonah Weiss, via email at [email protected], or visit his website at Also be on the lookout for Yonah’s new podcast series: Weiss Advice. 

 Thanks for tuning in! Until next time..

spk_0:   0:02
welcome to the prosperity through multi family real estate investing. Podcast. Here's your host, Cody Laughlin. What's everyone? And welcome to the prosperity through multi family real estate investing. Podcast. I'm your host committee, Laughlin, And this is your new weekly podcast series, where we talk about all things related to apartments. Indication where we talked to industry leaders to help you grow your business. So with us today, we have Jonah Wise, business director of medicine specs. Jonah, how you doing today?

spk_1:   0:31
I am doing great. How you doing, Cody?

spk_0:   0:34
Doing great man, doing great and looking forward to getting in this conversation and, uh, learning from you, but a little bit about Jonah before we get started. Jonah is a powerhouse with property owners tax savings. As a business director at Madison Specs, a national cost segregation leader, he has assisted clients and saving tens of millions of dollars in taxes through cost segregation. He has a background in teaching at a passion for real estate and helping others. He's also a real estate investor himself and the host of the new podcast Wise advice. So, Jonah, welcome again, then. Thanks for spending time with us.

spk_1:   1:05
It's a pleasure, and it's Ah, it's It's pretty cool for you guys are watching this on YouTube. I don't know if you hear any posting this. We got the same exact headphones, the same exact blue. Yet he might pretty cool. I think it's more than coincidence.

spk_0:   1:17
Absolutely great minds think alike. Love it. So, uh well, Jonas, tell us a little bit about how you kind of got started in real estate and how you got to be a business director over at Madison Specs.

spk_1:   1:28
Sure. My real estate journey kind of started about five years ago. 45 years ago, when I really needed some additional income. Was looking for, Ah, change on my background before. That was a teacher for about 15 years. And, you know, obviously a teacher salary is not, you know, the greatest and real estate. A lot of my friends were doing real estate, various different things. One of my closest friends was, ah, commercial mortgage broker. So I reached out to him and tell him I wanted to get some things like, Why don't you work with me like we could I'll teach you about commercial mortgages, commercial real estate in general. You'll get a really good picture of the industry. That way you'll get your feet wet. So that's basically how we started. I wanted to go, then Gettinto buying some my own property. So I had broker's license and wantedto do some fix it flips, did that and failed at doing that. And, uh, you know, was looking for just a community kind of away toe. Reach out to other people and I found this. You know, this company, Madison, this incredible company, National Commercial Real Estate service is, and through joining the company, I just really found my niche. You know, my calling that I'm really a teacher, and that's what I do best. You know, real estate is great, and if I can get involved in investing, if I get involved in helping make deals happen, that's awesome. But, you know, I want to use the talents, you know that I feel are God given for the best. So you know, they focus on many different service is the constant Irrigation company, which is tax savings really spoke to me the most and was something that I feel like I can really help a lot of people and you know one of my passions is, you know, is helping people. I started a nonprofit organization many years ago for the same purpose. And, you know, I don't feel like what I'm doing is io non profit service work. But it is really educating people and helping people say the taxes, which in the end of the day is tremendous service. So that's kind of how it all got started.

spk_0:   3:27
That's also that's such a great story. I mean, to go from being an educator. You know, teacher, to being a tax specialist like you learned out. It's just it's ah, it's a great story. So So let's kind of jump right into the basics of what exactly is call segregation.

spk_1:   3:43
The basics of it is we gotta get even more basic and get into what's depreciation right, because depreciation is a tax benefit that you get when you buy a property. It's a commercial property of residential Private doesn't matter as long as it's not your personal residence. So cost segregation is really like a more advanced form of depreciation. Okay, it's really not just it's a nugget. Extreme forms appreciation. Okay? It's like extreme sports of the appreciation okay. And we'll get into why that is and how that works shortly. But just understand appreciation, because the tax benefit, when you buy a property, you know, Iris allows you to write off the entire value off that property. Okay? Meeting a tax write off deduct from income tax. The amount that was spent to buy that property, except for land land does not appreciate. So off a certain amount. 10%. 15%. Whatever it is, it's a tractor land. And then the rest of it, you know. So if you bought a $1,000,000 property and you financed it, okay, with the mortgage, maybe only put down 20% 200,000 right away, you cannot write off a $1,000,000. Okay, Maybe a little less. Like I said, 900,000. What that means is you can write off entire value, but not all at once over a long period of time. Okay. For is a commercial property over 39 years. If it's a residential or multi family property over 27 a half years, so too may keep it simple. You get a one you know, 27th of ah deduction from your income tax each year. Case a $1,000,000 property. It's approximately $30,000 every single year for 27 years. It doesn't matter how long you're only in the property. That's the amount you get every single year. However, there's a way to actually accelerate that process and get more deductions up front front. Loading those tax deductions by doing this process cost segregation, which essentially says that the building that property you bought not all depreciate, meaning it doesn't go down in value, so to speak again. The whole concept of appreciation is really hypothetical from tax perspective, because your building's not really going down in value. It's just you're just getting the deduction based on the concept, as if it were going down about so it, Iris says. The furniture, the fixtures, the cabinets, anything that's deemed personal property can actually depreciate on a five year level. Okay, five year schedule and anything that is land improvements. Okay, anything outside the building like landscaping pavement? You were parking lot, a fencing, anything like that. There's value to that, and that appreciates on a 15 year schedule. So conservation, if the process of an engineer who's well versed with the tax code and the building components comes down and assesses every tiny detail of your property and a fixes, a depreciation life to it and a value to each thing. So we're segregating out the costs of the building. It's a crazy, weird name, but that's what it means for depreciating the property in different segments or different components. And that's really allows you to front load a large percentage of the actual property, but into the 1st 5 years.

spk_0:   6:56
So at what point do we want to consider initiating a cost segregation study? Do we want to do that for every property we're looking at are Why do we want to consider that

spk_1:   7:06
it's something that is somewhat subjective? Okay, what we're doing is creating more deductions now, depending on the person who owns the property or the entity that was the property of their investors of all, Do you need those extra tax deductions? Okay, Most of the time, the answer is yes. However, they're definitely certain occasions where the answer is no. Okay, If people were investing from retirement accounts, for example that are not are tax exempt, we're not gonna get the tax benefits from the con segregation because the income they're getting from that is tax exempt already. Okay, if it's a property that's undergoing a major heavy lift doing renovations, and it may not even be producing any income. So another example where we may not be appropriate to create more deductions to offset income that doesn't exist. Okay, so those exams otherwise, the best time to do conservation is really immediately after you purchase the property so the engineers can actually come in and assess the value. Appreciation starts. When you buy a property I want it's placed in service. So the best idea is to get engineer to assess the property. As is. However, it can be done retroactively as well. Meaning you can owned property for 235 years and have never done conservation and still get it done and recoup those missed depreciation deductions is a lot of little things. Why would I? You know if I'm doing it straight line. I'm doing your depreciation straight, you know, method for, you know, for 23 years already. Isn't it a difficult thing to not go back after an amend on my tax returns? The answer is no you do not have to amend your tax returns. And that's really the beauty of this, which you should never amend your tax returns unless you have to. Okay, but there's a form that's filled out called the 31 15 31 more five form that allows you to change The method of depreciation changed the method of accounting. And it's a pretty straightforward method of making sure that your taxes are now changed, and you can now recoup all of that missed appreciation from previous

spk_0:   9:04
years. Awesome. So walk us through the actual process of getting a cost segregation study initiated and started. What does that look like?

spk_1:   9:13
Sure. Well, the first thing that we always do is run a free analysis, okay, which will allow you to see. And it's a really educational to see what the potential tax benefits I'm gonna get If I do a full conservation study, you know you want to see Hey, is this worth it? How much we're gonna spend on this? How much tax benefit is really gonna come from this and that we do for free? Once you decide that you're looking at those numbers, it makes sense and basically, for any property purchase for a $1,000,000 or more, it's a no brainer. I mean, there's so much tax benefit there. Once you decide to do it, we'll send an engineer, one of our engineers to the property. They'll take a walk of the property, going to the units and take pictures. Measurements create a report, which that report is usually 90 100 pages long, Very detailed. Okay, very thorough sourcing all of the places in the tax code that touch on every single point as back up to the actual study that we're doing, which involves a whole numbering system. And Iris is extremely detailed. When you know when you want to get extra tax deductions, you have to jump through your hoops Neil Galore in order to make it happen. So that's why the detailed study is there, and what that does is it pumps out a new depreciation schedule. Okay, So instead of just a straight line, simple depreciation schedule, building land, we'll break it down into all those different lives. Like we said after doing all the calculations over everything in the property,

spk_0:   10:42
okay. And as far as that new depreciation schedule, what type of time frame. Does that look like now? So we've we've now accelerated it from 27 a half years. To what?

spk_1:   10:54
Well, what we've done is we've broken it down into a few different categories. Okay, so they're still gonna be, ah, large component of that 27 a half year, which applies to structural components of the building. Okay, bad still depreciates on a 27 half year schedule. You know, there's no way of getting around that. Okay? And typically, for, you know, multi family properties large that garden style, et cetera. Do you even between somewhere between 20 and 35% off the total basis, right. That's the purchase price minus the land will be re allocated to faster life. So you want 27 a half year basis, that amount that will have 15 year, which is that's again land improvements. Okay, then you have a five year. There are some times where there's seven year eyes. Another category it's pretty small is on a couple things that fit into that kind of growth. Of the main two of the five in the 15 I'm five year property again. That includes anything that's basically anything in the building that's not part of the structure. Hey, so carpeting, cabinets, countertops, fair furniture fixtures, special purpose lighting Fleming, you all kinds of things that are in the building in the property but aren't structural.

spk_0:   12:06
And as faras that new depreciation schedule goes. When can we capture that or over what type of time frame can recapture that? So, for example, if I'm holding a property for, let's say, 10 years, are you able to benefit from that throughout the altar in years? Or how does that work

spk_1:   12:23
s? So since we're front loading, you know, let's say 20% off. That's a $1,000,000 property. Let's just keep numbers around. A 2 200,000 of that is going to be appreciated in the 1st 5 years, Okay, as an additionally to the amount of that that from the 27 year. So additionally So instead of $30,000 of deductions, you're gonna get about 80,000 in the 1st 5 years. Okay? Approximately what that does is then, after you know, Year six is going to start going down instead of 30,000 and you will go down to 25,000 etcetera. So in the 1st 6 years, really, cause the first year is pro rated to the first, there's always gonna be a little less according to the date that you purchase the property. So the first year and a six year will be partial years. And so over the 1st 6 years really win. The maximum benefit of, uh, of appreciation is, except for certain types of properties where there's major ah, land improvements. So therefore, you know, the 1st 15 years you're still gonna get your benefit.

spk_0:   13:26
Got you OK? And so most of us that have been in the space Now we've heard of this this bonus depreciation, you know, that's been in effect since a couple of years ago. How does that impact a cost segregation study?

spk_1:   13:39
So bonus depreciation cannot actually be done without conservation. So they go hand in hand and ha Segregation is what I just described. Okay, breaking the property down in Tallinn seven categories. Bonus depreciation is an election. It's something you can choose to take which essentially says anything that depreciates less than 20 years, which is all the stuff we just just described you can elect. You can choose to take all of that appreciation in your number one guy. So you know all that five year property, only 15 year property, like said 20 to 35%. You can literally take all of that as a write off in your number one. So again, our example. $1,000,000 property. 200,000 or 300,000 As a first year tax write off. It's a pretty a pretty sweet deal.

spk_0:   14:27
Mass attack savings. Your one, um, do we have to do a bonus depreciation? Can we divide that over several years or how does that work?

spk_1:   14:37
So, no, you either can do the constant radiation, which is already accelerated depreciation over the five year. Or you can elect to take the 100% off the bonus depreciation. Your number one. There's no dividing it up once you do that.

spk_0:   14:50
So in what circumstances would we not want to do? Maybe bonus depreciation?

spk_1:   14:57
So again, you know, looking at the circumstances of the individuals who were involved, right? Who were the owners? Who are you going? Thio reap benefit in the first year from getting all those tax deductions? You know, in a perfect example of that where Where would be where? You know it's a partnership where you don't own any other properties, and maybe you bought the property at the end of the year. By the November December, there has not been a lot of income being produced from this property. And again, the appreciation is a tax deduction that's usedto offset income from the property. So if you made $100,000 of income and you have $100,000 of depreciation deduction, OK, now you have zero tax liability. The entire 100,000 stays in your pocket. But if you have $10,000 of income from the property and to take a $200,000 bonus, two extra depreciation, it's gonna just put your tax return basically in a negative. It's not negative, okay, but it means it's like a negative balance, which means you can't use those benefits this year unless you're real estate professionals. Something maybe we can touch on shortly. But it's just gonna carry forward, meaning you're gonna be able to use those in future years. But you're not gonna benefit immediately in this year,

spk_0:   16:11
okay? And so we've been talking more on, you know if I go out and buy a property myself. But right. What? What if I'm syndicating a deal and I have multiple partners in the deal? Is this something that can benefit not only the partners on the active side, but also the passive side?

spk_1:   16:25
Yeah. So anyone who you know is participating in a syndication, and it depends. It's gonna depend on your operating agreement on what's the tax allocation. You know who's getting one. Okay, so if I own 2% of the equity of the property, I get 2% off the depreciation and a syndication is someone is made up of tens or hundreds of investors. It's important to try to keep in mind. Is this gonna be beneficial to all in, you know, or at least to a certain extent, and usually the answer is yes. Unless, um, you know, extenuating circumstances are, for example, like I mentioned the beginning. If they're investing from a tax shelter on a retirement account or something that's not taxable, they're not gonna benefit from that, So you're not gonna have any reason to do it at that point. However, in most cases, like I said, it is beneficial this. Everyone will get their hey once, which is a tax filing form at the end of the year, which will show what your income from the property is and what your expensive with the depreciation is. So that's really where you're going to see the benefit. Everyone, everyone's gonna get it. Say I handmade you put $100,000 into the steel, getting 8% return whenever $8000 of getting $10,000 a depreciation, which means that $8000 stays in my pocket, not taxed, and the extra $2000 is carried forward till next year, where it could be used next year. So it's usually gonna be, ah, beneficial to everyone. Whether you're passive, whether you're active, it doesn't make a difference.

spk_0:   17:56
Awesome. So this is a very powerful for strategy that I think a lot of people are out there using today, right? I mean, obviously you want about the massive tax saving that you could benefit from, but what are some things that we need to know about performance? Call segregation study? Is it just a simple a ce you know, massive Tex Avery. Then you get to walk away, Or is there some things that we really need to be aware of when we're doing these type of studies?

spk_1:   18:20
100%. Always consult with your tax advisor. That's number one. Now, that being said, if you consult your tax advisor and they're like I don't segregation study is you might want to find a new tax advisor, especially if you're in real estate. However, you're gonna wanna be aware that, yeah, it's not all roses. OK, there are things that come along with it that may affect other things. Which one of those major issues is depreciation Recapture tax, which is something not talked about enough. When you buy a property, you get all these deductions. Great. But when you go to sell the property, you actually get hit not only with the capital gains tax on the profit that you made from the property, but also something called depreciation recapture tax, which is a tax that you have to pay on the amount of depreciation taken. You don't pay the depreciation back, which is a common misnomer. I've heard that from a lot of people take appreciation when I said I have to pay it back It's not true. You have to pay a tax on that amount. It's a 25% tax, but there's even ways to get around that as well. Now it is important to note, if you have a business plan that you're planning a holy of property for five years, let's say as a lot of syndications do, so it's important, you know, maybe toe keep that in mind. Take that in consideration. When you're considering doing it doing the consternation, What's gonna happen in five years from now? Um, what's gonna be the sale price potentially can predict the future. But, you know, am I going to do 1/10 or you won't exchange? As at the end of this in syndication, the answer's probably no, but it's a little difficult. You have to put it going to attendance and common structure. But what you can do is something called partial acid disposition, which allows you to reallocate a lesser amount of value to those assets that appreciate on a shorter life. So let me keep it simple. You have cabinets, OK, cabinets, let's say in the whole property all together add up to $50,000 with the cabinets now from cost segregation perspective that $50,000 is depreciating over five years, $10,000 every single year. After five years, there's your value of no longer depreciating it. That means it's taken off the basis. There's no more depreciation there when there's no more assets on the basis when you sell a property, you can actually allocate that that value no longer exist from attacks. Perspective. There's no more value there. There are no more value. There's no depreciation recapture tax on that amount. Okay, so that's something that a lot of people don't know and not enough people are taking advantage off because, you know, most accountants do this, especially large accounting firms. This is like a no brainer is like part of the methodology that they dio, you know, all the Big Four. For sure, this is common methodology. In fact, some of them are more aggressive and even do it After one year or two years, three years of holding, we'll see at five your ass. It no longer has value after one year. Okay, that's very aggressive, But you should know this is something that is a huge game changer because not only are you taking those huge deductions up front? But I'm not only going to be not gonna be affected or minimally affected by the recapture tax on the sale

spk_0:   21:39
that is powerful. I've never heard of that before. So that's why I'm taking notes as we're talking. So I appreciate your share that as faras the items that fall into that appreciation criteria, if you will. Is that something that we should study up on and try to learn ourselves? Or is that something that, you know, We just trust the engineers that come out and tell us what that is or

spk_1:   22:04
when you say it is appreciation criteria mean the different assets that depreciate over different lives

spk_0:   22:08
exactly like you mentioned cabinets, Lights what? You know, whatever fixtures you know again, how do we as operators, the syndicators go about knowing what those different appreciable assets are?

spk_1:   22:19
The easiest way is to, you know, check out the report that we do at the end, which will which will break everything down very clearly. So that's I mean, the easiest way to go about doing it. Another, you know, very powerful aspect of the conservation is that it can be done not only on the purchase of a building, but also on the subsequent renovations. Because when you're adding two and I'm gonna answer your question in a roundabout way, but we'll get back to it because once you when you're doing renovations, what you're doing essentially is adding, you know, taking things away, okay, Disposing of certain assets and adding more value, literally more money into the basis into the property. You bottom out brought poverty for $1,000,000. He spent $500,000 renovating it. That extra $500,000 is added to your basis and depreciate it. Okay, so now you're new. You know, your basis at the beginning was a $1,000,000 of the tax write off. Now it's 1.5. So now with that new additions, you're either going to be putting that on a 27 year schedule or you can cost segregate. You can break out the amounts that was spent into faster depreciation, and this is coming to answer a question. How do I know and where is it beneficial to know what type of property appreciates on what schedule when you're doing major innovations like that it is important to think, Hey, I'm gonna get you get you know, what am I gonna put in here essentially, that I'm gonna get bigger tax benefits from. So a great example is like replacing a track. Right? So now we're placing a roof. Roof is considered, which is a common thing. People do as well, right? You have to do that Retention seniors anyways, but the roof is considered structural. Okay, so you don't get any tax write off first for structural roof. Except for a certain types of commercial buildings. You could take something else for the 1 79 deduction. Not gonna get into that. We're talking about apartments. Indications here, But your age HVAC system, the main system in the main coolers, it's considered structural, and that's usually a major ticket item in the actual value it in the actual Camp X. However, the person the individual units off the H vac are considered five year property. So that means when replacing those individual units, you're actually gonna get that tax deduction over the 1st 5 years or the bonus depreciation also on that renovation. So these kind of things are important, you know? Maybe consult someone like myself are Madison. Specs are firm, you know, with the engineers to see Hey, I'm planning this big renovation. I could either put in, you know, tile flooring, or I can put in vinyl floor, you know, what should I do? So, from a tax perspective, you know, maybe cheaper to do the vinyl flooring. Right? But you're actually gonna get the tax deduction about five years. Vinyl flooring or carpeting zone, five year depreciation. Where's the tile floors? Is considered structural, as can appreciate on a 27 year after year basis. So what are you gonna get the tax deduction on upfront in these kind of things come into play.

spk_0:   25:18
So you alluded to something which was gonna be my next question. So you mentioned that you want to get the engineers out immediately after you probably get the property and start doing an assessment. But when do when should we get you guys engaged in helping us to determine our strategy as far as the call segregation study. So should we just wait till after we've secured the property and we've actually purchased it? Or can we get you guys involved early on in the due diligence.

spk_1:   25:43
Yeah, a lot of times it's important to even during the due diligence stage. So once you have a property under contract, you know, reach out because, like I said, we'll provide that upfront estimate. It's usually a conservative estimate, but it's gonna tell you what your potential tax savings they're gonna be. And it's extremely beneficial. Especially, you know, not everyone uses this in underwriting because, you know we're not doing this on, even though the depreciation conservation is on a property level. But the actual real tax benefits on individual, very subjective basis right to the investors so we won't be able to say, Hey, this is the amount of appreciation we can get. But how that plays out and how that affects the investors is going to be subjected to them.

spk_0:   26:27
Absolutely. I think it's good to know that go ahead of time because that's a powerful communication and strategy when you're talking about bringing passive investors in as well so that they can see what what is the potential tax implications? But there's a lot right,

spk_1:   26:41
and I've heard from a lot of the operators that that's one of the most common questions nowadays from passive investors is Are you gonna be doing a contribution study? Because they want to make sure that not only the investing their money and making good returns but here's a way, toe, actually get those returns tax free, at least temporary, at least for the 1st 5 years and then beyond that, potentially, even more. But that's yes, it is. It is an important thing to do, even during the underwriter Yoon during the due diligence process.

spk_0:   27:13
Awesome. Okay, so you are the business director of Madison Suspects. So how do we go about finding a good call segregation company to work with? What are some? I like some tips that you can give us on Brutus elect in working with.

spk_1:   27:29
Right. So there are in a bright biased, obviously, because Madison Specs is the biggest national company doing this. You know, we have the largest volume of anyone out there. Although there are, you know, a handful of other national companies that are reputable. Okay, They I'm not gonna bad mouth anyone. God forbid they all basically the same. It's a certain degree that being said, you want to make sure that they have, you know, engineers they're doing engineer based study. There are a few different types of conservation Studies for the engineer based study is the only one that's actually fully recognized by the I. R. S. If it weren't have come under an audit. And that's really the say going to the second that you want to make sure that if you're doing this with company, they're going to stand behind their work and offer full audit protection, meaning you don't have anything to risk whatsoever by doing this. All right, so if they're doing it, you know extremely aggressive where they're doing it and not following the rules. But they just don't have the experience and know what needs to go into a conservation study. It's probably not worth doing it okay to big risk. Obviously, it's a small risk about being audited, but if you are, it's a big risk of getting that throwing the garbage, which comes with, you know, fines and penalties and interest, etcetera. The other thing, I would say is, you know, you want to make sure they have a dual focus right there in accounting, you know, they have accountants and its in house s, so they're not gonna be outsourcing to other people. There are a bunch of firms out there also that Well, just take the work and then hire, you know, in 1/3 party engineer or whatever on outsource that work that makes things obviously does not streamline the process. It makes things a little more clunky, makes communication broken, harder to deal with. I'm gonna make sure that they're they're charging you fairly. Okay. I just spoke with someone today, and accounting called me up and he said he's been working with another firm. They charge a percentage of your tax benefit. Now, that's actually a no no in the eyes of the IRS. Because you're no longer considered 1/3 party consultant saying to the I R. S, you should give this amount of appreciation and I'm taking a cup. So you want to make sure they're charging you based on the scope of work. You know, bass, a flat fee, not based on your contingent, too. You're taxation. So I'd say that and make sure they're they're very active on linked in. That's you the biggest right? You want to make sure that conservation firm you're using now that's what you want to make sure that they're, you know, they're real people, Okay? And that's the end of the day when you're when you're reaching out to any type of vendor or adviser, whatever you want to make sure you're connecting with them. And, uh, you know, they're coming as a trusted adviser and helping you through the process.

spk_0:   30:11
Excellent. I think this is just a huge topic. I think we could spend probably hours just kind of going through all the nuts and bolts of appreciation and tax savings called segregation. But, um, I don't want to hold you up that long, so I do have a couple more questions for you. Um, what do you do for your continued learning an education related to your business?

spk_1:   30:32
So I have the incredible benefit of having some of like the world's experts in the subject in our company. And so and I have the access to them, you know, any time I want to question. So I'm literally calling them or are you just going to their office? Whatever it is every day, that's one thing. So I'm asking questions and continuing learning in that, and two we usually have once every ah, once every month. Sometimes once every three weeks or so we'll have ah seminar by one of our C. P s the tax director. One of out of the secret is going through some, you know, some nuances, a little more, you know, kind of sharpening the saw in that regard. That's what I do. I love to learn. So I listened to a lot of podcasts also, and, you know, it's a great one. Grand Hall has a great podcast after the real estate. C p a. On he's doing, Ah, big events next week, actually a virtual seminar on taxes on gloss. So you know, things like that I love to listen to and tow learn from really experts across the

spk_0:   31:32
board. So who's been your biggest inspiration for you and your success in your career

spk_1:   31:37
in this? In this regard, I think the you know, the inspiration has been really my family. And that's that's really the truth. Because you know, who am I doing any of this for love? All you guys okay? Don't can't be wrong, but I love Ah, you know I love my family. And to provide for my Children, making sure that they can have, Ah, a better life. And I think that's really the inspiration.

spk_0:   32:01
Awesome. What advice would you give to the listeners to help them grow their businesses?

spk_1:   32:06
Everyone's got a different story. Everyone's got a different goals. But make sure you figure out what those goals are and be humble enough to ask for help and continuously asked for help. Doesn't matter where you are, what stage you know, off success you are at always gotta be asking for help and looking to learn from from others who have done it before. You

spk_0:   32:28
absolutely, and how can listen, get connected with you

spk_1:   32:31
linked in my friends. That's where is that? Check it out. There's only one you runaways. Yeah, that's that's, uh, we could find You can reach me. Madison specs. Okay. Madison specs dot com Why? Weiss at Madison Specs. If you want one of those free analysis is don't hesitate.

spk_0:   32:48
Awesome. Well, young again, man. Thank you so much for spending time with us and going over this very valuable topic. Man, we've learned a lot. I know I've bring down a bunch of notes, so I definitely appreciate the inside and your knowledge and look forward to your new podcast coming out soon and we'll make sure to put that in the show notes as well. So

spk_1:   33:05
awesome. Thank you, Cody. It's been a pleasure. I appreciate you having me on

spk_0:   33:08
Ellison made. Take care, buddy. Want to connect with Cody? Email him at Cody at L I G and bests dot com or visit www dot l i. G invests dot com. Thank you for listening to the prosperity through multi family real estate investing podcast Tune in next time.